Alan Murphy Oral History Transcript

Interviewee: Alan Murphy (Murph)
Date:
Interviewer:

Q: This is an oral history interview with Alan Murphy, by Vicky [inaudible 00:00:08] on 08 August 2019. Also present are...

Q1: [Nicola Aplin 00:00:13].

Q: [Nicola 00:00:14] is note taking. And...?

Q2: Eva Tausig.

Q: The interview is taking place at Rotherhithe as part of the Thames Festival Trust for Foragers of the Foreshore Heritage Project. We’ll start by asking some questions about you. So, please could you state your full name and how old are you?

A: So, my name is Alan Murphy. I am 50 years old.

Q: And where were you born?

A: I was originally born in Bermondsey and then moved up to Rotherhithe about 22 years ago.

Q: So you grew up at Rotherhithe?

A: [Coughs] I grew up in Bermondsey and Rotherhithe.

Q: Yeah. And what sort of subjects were you interested in at school?

A: Funnily enough, art. Art and English. Not history. Nothing to do with history. I didn't like history. So, yes, so drawing and, yes, that type of thing [laughs].

Q: And how long have you been mudlarking?

A: Just over 30 years now, so as a young kid on the foreshore, fishing, around by Tower Bridge in the old pier that used to be in front of Tower Bridge. And then when I was 19 I started mudlarking, you know, a few times a week, and it’s gradually, got worse.

Q: And do you go out every day? What does a typical--,

A: Most days, I--,

Q What does a typical week look like?

A: So, you have two tides a day depending on what time of year it is. You'll have very early tides and then you'll have very late tides. Also when you've got an early tide it’s quite muddy because you don't get the boats running to wash the mud away. And of an evening not so muddy because they've already [run away 00:02:09].

Q: Which do you think’s the better tide?

A: To be honest with you, I think both are good, because I've had really good finds on both tides. Low tides and quite high tides produce finds.

Q: And what keeps you going back to the River to mudlark?

A: Erm [sighs] just the thought of you just never know what you're going to find. You just never know what could have washed out .You can go from a coin find one day to a Woolly mammoth tooth on another day.

Q: So you go out all year round in all weathers?

A: All year round, all weathers. Rain, snow, sleet, fog. Yes, and the summer heat.

Q: And have you got into any kind of particularly kind of scary situations?

A: Yes. I've been stuck in the mud a few times, which is why a lot of mudlarks carry buckets with them, because if you're walking along you do get areas which look solid but actually they're not. It could have been a boat’s backed in and washed out that area. So you bring your bucket, if you go down, you push down on your bucket on the mud to help bring yourself back out. Also it saves quite a few people who have got stuck in mud in certain areas.

Q: And how do you prepare before you go out mudlarking? Do you kind of carry something in particular? Do you wear something in particular?

A: So, i wear wellingtons, gloves, the bucket, I also have a trowel. And sometimes I wear a pouch if I’m going further away from where I live, in the area where I search, then I’d take a rucksack and everything will go in that.

Q: And why is it important to wear gloves?

A: Just because you can catch Weil’s disease from the River Thames, which is a well known disease from rats. It’s quite a muddy place , you get glass, you get sharp objects, so it’s more of a protection thing.

Q: And do you tend to mudlark in this area or do you go further afield sometimes?

A: I’m mainly centred in Rotherhithe, which is quite a big area. I do go to a lot of other areas as well, so not just Rotherhithe.

Q: And do you go on your own or do you kind of tend to meet up with other mudlarkers and--,

A: Mainly on my own.

Q: Go as a group?

A: I sometimes meet up with people on the foreshore as well who are mudlarking. We kind of all sort of group together. Also we have meet ups certain times of the year where we’ll all meet together and go out to different places.

Q: And if you've been mudlarking for 30 years, obviously you must have collected a lot of things. Is there now something that you're really interested in collecting? Or do you still pick up--,

A: I’m kind of a hoarder. It’s only recently I gave a lot of stuff away when i moved home. I've given stuff to schools. Bits of pottery to friends, to the museum of London. I've given loads of Red Almandine garnets and pottery shards to different projects. I’m trying to sort of slow down on what I do collect. I’m not really doing really good at the moment.

Q: [Both laugh] And how do you do you further research on what you find? 'Cause you've had some amazing finds.

A: Yeah. So, I mean generally when we find something really good we have to contact the Finds Liaison Officer at the Museum of London, which is currently Stuart Wyatt. He's a friend. And we go to see him. We are given an appointment, to hand it in to him. He records it and it goes on the Portable Antiquities Scheme and they put all the information on there. Then if you've got your own record account with them it then gets put onto your record account with all the finds you've had over the years, which is just brilliant.

Q: And do you do any research into the finds before you actually go to see Stuart?

A: Yes. Yes, generally I do a Google search, then books, you know, and just generally search I mean you kind of know what it is, if you've been doing it long enough, you know, you can be quite sure that something that you think it is, is actually that, i.e. it could be a flint axe, a [bones skate 00:07:04] from the frost fairs, or a woolly mammoth tooth.

Q: [Laughs] Yeah, we’ll come on to that in a minute. How important is it for you to share your finds and to share your knowledge?

A: Well, [sighs] I was once told that knowledge should be shared. And now with social media and people sharing their finds, I--, there's so many new people coming into it who we call newbie mudlarks. It’s always good to give them advice. Some people kind of know something’s good, some people just don't know what they've picked up. A lot of people don't know you have to record something that's 300 years or older with the museum of London, or even just to notify them in case it’s something special that they will record. So, sharing knowledge helps other people as well as shows that you're doing the right thing, you know, and you're doing everything legally, that you're mudlarking permit says you have to do.

Q: Mmm. You've mentioned using social media. Can you tell us, well, what your social media handle is and talk about how you use social media to get your information out?

A: My social media handle on Instagram and Twitter is Mudlark _Thames_Larker. And you get people following you. You get people in many different countries interested in history . It’s good to share, like I say, knowledge. And it’s good to show finds. So, hands-on history is something I’m interested in. With my mudlarking exhibition at Sandsfilms picture research library 00:08:49], as you know, sometimes I'll open it up and people can come in and hold the objects, which when you go to a museum you can’t do that. So, sharing knowledge and letting people feel actually improves their knowledge and understanding. And also it excites them about history.

Q: Mmm. And how do you think the River’s changed over the years? 'Cause you've been mudlarking for 30 years, you'll have seen a lot of changes.

A: Yes, quite a lot of changes. When I was younger, when I first started mudlarking, the surfaces were quite higher up. Since they introduced the Thames clippers boats [inaudible 00:09:30] on the Thames, they're actually eroding the foreshores at an alarming rate. A perfect example is Traitors’ Gate at the Tower of London. That's been reinforced because the erosion was [undermining 00:09:42] the wall. Here at Rotherhithe it’s exposed 18th Century ships’ timbers, 18th Century gun carriage cheeks which I found in 2011. But in doing that, also it allows us to find them and see them and piece together history of the area you're mudlarking in. Rotherhithe being the biggest ship building, ship breaking yards and the biggest recycling centre, you know, it all just corresponds and helps. So, you get good and bad.

Q: Mmm. And over sort of 30 years, how has your relationship to mudlarking changed?

A: In the early days you wasn’t finding the kind of stuff you find now. It was more digging, you know, in those days. You had to dig down or scrape, down to find something. Now, like I said, with the Thames clippers, they're eroding the foreshore at an alarming rate, so things are washing out daily on every tide, every hour. I mean even you can see things washing out in front of your eyes. So, yes, so that's a big difference from when I first started.

Q: So, it’s easier to find--,

A: It’s easier now. as you don't need to dig. You can do an eyes-only search quite easily without any scraping. In some areas you need to scrape.

Q: Mmm. And obviously you need a permit, don't you?

A: You must have a licence (permit) from the Port of London Authority to mudlark. Anybody even turning a stone or a rock over, that's classed as searching. So, there's no eyes-only searching no more without a permit. You have to have a permit, which is a good idea,

Q: And there are certain areas you can’t go?

A: Certain areas you can’t go. I’m a full London mudlarker and a member of the exclusive Mudlarks Society. There's 50 members in the society and we are entitled to dig 1.2 metres. We don't have to, with the erosion happening now. We can go to other areas where standard licence mudlarks cannot go.

Q: Yeah. My last question in this section is, describe mudlarking in one word.

A: Oh, that's a really hard question. That is--, and I've not been asked that one before. Erm, thrilling. Thrilling.

Q: [Both laugh] Right. Now, you've brought along five objects to share with. So, pick up your--, pick your first object. And can you describe it to us in a few words?

A: So, we have, the first object is an Anglo Saxon 11th Century zoomorphic drinking horn terminal in the shape of a beast with swept-back ears, which would have sat on the underneath of a drinking horn. And one of only four found in the British Isles, which has recently brought a professor who’s writing a book, over from America, to photograph and record. Plus it’s been recorded on the Portable Antiquities Scheme.

Q: And when did you find it?

A: So, this was found two and a half years ago, so it would have been 2017, the end of 2016.

Q: What was the foreshore like when you did find it?

A: It was raining quite heavily. It was cold. It was early morning. I really should have been home in bed but that morning for some reason I decided I wanted to go out. And in some cases when it’s raining the metal shows up better and helps you pick stuff out.

Q: And how did you feel when you found it?

A: Shocked, excited, erm, kind of thought it was early medieval, i didn't realise it would be anglo saxon 11th Century, didn't realise it would be a drinking horn terminal. And the area I found it, we get a lot of nails from the ship breaking industry. But this had a staring pair of eyes looking at me, which helped me find it.

Q: And did you know what it was when you found it?

A: Not at first, no. Once I got home a quick search online kind of led me to believe it was a drinking horn terminal.

Q: Wow. And so why did you choose that to describe to us today?

A: Just because it’s a rare find on the River Thames and it’s Anglo-Saxon, you know. It’s not an everyday find. You get common finds a lot of clay pipes and coins, belt buckles, that type of thing, so when you see something like this you know there's something bigger connected to it. So, yes, very grateful.

Q: Okay. Your second object?

A: The second object will be a coin of Louis XIII, dated 1619, found at Rotherhithe foreshore where the Mayflower ship left in 1620 to find the New World, the Pilgrims. I have never found another one of these. I don't know anyone who’s ever found another one. That day, here, in 1619, the Mayflower ship, before it left to go to find the Americas with the Pilgrims, was actually travelling backwards and forwards to France with silks and wools to swap for wines. A great possibility it was brought back by one of the crew on board and thrown away once they got here.

Q: And when did you find it?

A: Oh, 2015 I think. Yes, so, quite a few years back.

Q: And what was the foreshore like when you did find it? What time of day did you find it?

A: So, sleet, cold, typical foreshore, winter morning. Yes, hard to see, you know. It’s freezing cold. Freezing cold. And it just, once again, because it’s metal and it’s copper alloy, it tends to pop out at you. And my eyes see shapes, so that helped. And that was the only find that day. Once I had found that, that was enough.

Q: And did you know what it was? Was it covered in mud or--,

A: Didn't know what it was. Covered in mud, bit of erosion on it, a bit green on the corner. So then once I had cleaned it up and then started researching the date, 1619, you know, a little bit about Louis XIII and then come across an article about the Mayflower leaving from London in 1619 to go to France from Rotherhithe it--, so yes, very interesting story.

Q: And it’s in quite good condition.

A: Quite good condition--,

Q: For its age.

A: As a lot of coins come up the Thames are--, a lot of artefacts that come up the Thames are actually--, the Thames mud is anaerobic, so no oxygen can penetrate that mud. So, generally as something goes in, it comes out, you know, more or less the same, which is good for mudlarks and, you know, for archaeology in general.

Q: Yeah. And why did you choose this particular item for us?

A: Just because it’s a small item which could hold a lot of history. A lot of history. If we can connect this to the Mayflower, from one of the crew, that'd be brilliant, you know. The year before the Mayflower ship left, little was known, so that's why.

Q: Yeah. Lovely. Your third object.

A: The third object is a [bone skate 00:18:36] which is a sheep’s bone which has been reused as a [bones skate 00:18:46] on the Thames during the time of the frost fairs, which is when the Thames used to freeze over and they used to, you know, put tents and you'd have loads of vendors making their own ones with their own marks and, you know, people would come and rent them. And the underneath of it is smooth, very, very smooth and polished from the ice.

Q: And how big is it?

A: So, it’s probably four and a half to five inches long. It’s the lower part of a sheep’s leg. And these are quite common things on the foreshore, bones in general, just from all the tanneries, you know, whatever’s producing leather. Plus you had all the inns just chucking out things onto the foreshore. So, they was free for people just to pick up to make something. And that interests me because it’s nothing special, it’s just a piece of old bone and there's hundreds and thousands on the foreshore but someone has decided that they wanted to turn this into a [bone skate 00:20:01], you know, and it’s a lovely [bone skate 00:20:06].

Q: And how would they have fastened it on to a boot?

A: So, from my knowledge a leather toggle would have come around. And this one has two holes at the back end of it where the leather would have been threaded through. And then it’s cut out as well and either a bone or antler toggle would have been connected into there, places on the person’s foot, so when they was going along, that then would not come out and it would keep in place, which is very clever. Very clever. Yes, so, you know, a piece of bone has got a lot of history to it.

Q: And when did you find it?

A: So, I found that this year, actually, yes, just a few months back.

Q: And what was the foreshore like when you found it? What was the weather--,

A: Quite a sunny day. So it was the start of summer, you know, very hot day, enjoyable, blue skies. And it was sitting in a puddle.

Q: And how did you feel when you found it?

A: At first I didn't realise what it was. I’m a flint knapper, so I make flint replica artefacts from flint. And I also use these pieces of bone as handles, which they used to do in the early medieval period as well. And so initially that's why I picked it up, to insert a flint blade into it. And then I realised it had a polished bottom and then quickly realised it was possibly a [bone skate 00:21:56] from the time of the frost fairs on the River Thames.

FS: When were the frost fairs?

A: So, I believe from the early 16th Century up until the 18th Century. When the bridges, they had smaller arches in the bridges, which slowed the water down. So when the old bridges were removed they put the newer bridges in with bigger arches which allowed a fast-flowing river [through it 00:22:25], which stopped the water from freezing over, so it’s not frozen ever since that time, which is really, you know, it would be amazing if it did. It would be absolutely amazing if it could still do that, you know, just for people to go and do the same thing that's been done for hundreds of years. I mean they used to have elephants, animals of all sorts sometimes, which is amazing.

Q: It’s a beautiful find because it is very smooth. It’s very tactile, isn’t it?

A: Very small, very tactile. Very tactile, yes. Actually, everyone I allow to hold it, they've--, that is exactly what they do. They, you know, they sort of start rubbing between their fingers. Here, feel how smooth the bottom is. And it’s a flat bottom, And if you can see on the edges, they've been worn down from use.

Q: Mmm. And it’s very, very shiny.

A: Very shiny, very shiny. And that is typical of a [bone skate 00:23:26]. Generally you'll find bones exactly the same and you can see the more concave like the top part here, so when you get it as flat like that, you know it’s, you know, it’s been used on ice. And also that shiny, polished as the museum call it.

Q: Yeah. And why did you choose it as one of your items?

A: Once again, a simple, simple thing to make. It was something that was free. It never cost a person any money. It was readily available on the foreshore. And they created a [bone skate 00:24:13] out of it, to earn money to feed themselves. So, it’s quite a big story when you sort of start realising a piece of bone can do that.

Q: Thank you. Your next item?

A: The next item is what we currently call a Thames pick, which is a flint axe, or adze. This one dates to 8300-350 BC, so it’s Mesolithic in date. It’s a typical style of flint axe we find on the River Thames. It’s roughly finished, it’s smooth. We have possibly what's known as a tranchet curve, so a cutting edge on the front. We've loads of retouch, which has been retouched by a human hand. Also as a flint knapper, this really appeals to me. I’m quite obsessed with flint, so to actually find a flint axe made during the Mesolithic period is just mind-boggling. To have an original one, you know. People start off mudlarking and this is what they want to find. You know, this is real history. Also we have a bit of cortex left on at the back end to allow it to be haft onto a stick to be used. And that cortex is quite rough and would have gripped the wood as it was used. And it was probably bound as well as a secondary--,

Q: So it would have been attached to something else?

A: A wooden--, hafted on a wooden shaft, you know, and used, they say, for carpentry, you know, building, building dwellings. I think it was just like a general use tool. I think they categorise them now as mining tools when they find them. These are found all around the British Isles, mainly on the Thames, the Thames Estuaries, and they come in different colours. This is a bluey black with a bit of brown on the back.

Q: And how big is it? And how heavy is it?

A: So, it’s probably three and a half to four inches. Weight-wise, half a bag of sugar. Very tactile. I often sit there when I come round to the exhibition that I've got and I pick it up and I do sit there [when I learn 00:27:10] stuff, 'cause it is so tactile. You've got steep sides and it--, you can see the [bulb concussions 00:27:16], you can see all the flake scars. It’s just an amazing, an amazing tool. And it’s a multi-tool.

Q: And when did you find it?

A: I believe it was 2014. Yes, sometime around there.

Q: And what was the foreshore like when you did find it?

A: Very muddy. I was actually investigating something else with Thames Discovery when I noticed it and it was covered in mud but the shape of this, it would remind you of a child’s shoe or even a small adult’s shoe, so it kind of stuck out in my eyeline. And then once I’d picked it up and washed it, I straightaway knew what it was.

Q: And how did you feel when you actually pi--,

A: Very, very, very happy.

Q: Picked it up?

A: Very happy. You don't get a lot of good days on the Thames in mudlarking. But the small--, days you do get are very good days. And I done what we call a gold dance, so that refers to if you find a gold coin, but in this incident it was a flint axe. So, you know, you do your happy dance.

Q: [Laughs] So, why did you choose this object?

A: Once again, just a natural commodity, just, you know, there's loads of flint on the foreshore. It’s everywhere. They've literally picked up and used what's in front of them, you know. And they've turned it into something which can feed--, and they can hunt with, they can work with, they can build with. So, it covers quite a lot of history.

Q: Fascinating.

A: Very.

Q: Fascinating. Right, your next object, please.

A: My next object is a Bronze Age deer antler mattock which is naturally shed from top of the stag’s [crown 00:29:38].

Q: How can you tell it’s naturally shed?

A: Just if it was cut it’d be--, you'd show signs of being--, butchery marks, in effect. These, there's a lot known about these. But this is the only one that's ever been found on the Thames, which is very special. It’s been recorded with the Portable Antiquities Scheme. It’s been perforated, so a hole has been put into it to haft it onto a wooden shaft, to use it similarly as the flint axe. So, this came around about or just before that time. It’s got a cut edge on it. Once again, natural. It’s a natural thing for people to use. At that period they were readily available. They can pick it up and they can make tools with it. And once again, the same thing, building tools, very tactile. It’s got some iron staining where it was sitting on top near some nails which had attached themselves to it, rather than underneath it. And yeah.

Q: And how big is it and how heavy is it?

A: It’s probably five inches long. Weight-wise, I don't know, probably about a quarter-bag of sugar.

Q: And what was the foreshore like when you found it?

A: Raining that morning, cold. It was six o'clock in the morning, it was winter, it was very dark. I was wearing a head torch. My bucket was filling up with water from the rain very quickly and I was just about to leave to go back home to get a hot drink to warm myself up and that's when I see it, I see the perforated hole which made me look a second time. And I’m glad I did. Also when I found this, next to it was laying a deer antler [tine 00:32:05], which is another part, a branch, that comes off the crown, which showed signs of crushing at one end. And during that period they used to use them for pressure flaking the flint, making these flakes, and retouch marks. So, that was a bonus as well. It was a two-in-one find, yes.

Q: And how did you feel when you found it?

A: Kind of numb, shocked. Once again, I thought it was a deer antler mattock. And it’s actually a type B deer antler mattock. You get type A, type B, C and D. But this is a type B. So, quite excited. And then home, quick research, confirmed what I thought I had. And then contacted the museum and was given an interview within a couple of days and then brought it up. And yes, they was all excited about it because it was one that hadn’t been seen before.

Q: Another happy dance?

A: Another happy dance, yes. Well, quite a happy, wet dance, you know. But yes, a brilliant find, still amazes me today, looking at it. And it’s just one of my very small favourite finds.

Q: And why did you choose it today?

A: Once again, it’s natural, it’s organic. It’s a tool you could make many things out of. And an antler has been used for thousands of years, to make many different types of tools. And to find it just sitting there on the Thames on a cold morning, you know, just kind of blows your mind. As to the world we see today, you know, it brings you straight back to that period of how it would have been then.

Q: It’s beautiful.

A: A beautiful thing, yes, very.

Q: Yeah. Right, your last find. Describe this.

A: So, my last find--,

Q: Object--,

A: Has been described as a top left third molar from a woolly mammoth, which roamed many, many thousands of years ago. I’m actually still waiting for a date from the museum. It’s been recorded with the museum and they have contacted a specialist professor. He has told us it is a third upper molar, left upper molar. And he will be updating us with some further information. It’s not a complete one. It’s three-quarters. We've got a break at one end which was done during antiquity. And it’s meant to be a bit of flint. And the reason why I say that is because that day I found it I was out collecting flint from the Thames foreshore. It was a pretty bad tide, high tide. Not an area you could really search. And I had previously, days before, left some flint to come back and pick up. And when I got to the area the flint had gone. It magically disappeared, which does happen on the Thames. So I started looking for it and then I see this down at the waterline, you know. And I just thought, that's one of the pieces of flint, let’s go and pick it up. And then as I got closer I noticed it wasn’t actually flint and I noticed the ridges, or the [ribs 00:36:16], and I’d previously had another one so I kind of got excited, shocked, stayed calm, done a little dance, composed myself, done another little dance. I done a quick search on the Internet and then realised it was a woolly mammoth’s tooth. So, yes, unexpected where I was, not the material that I was going to get. I was going to get flint and I come back with a woolly mammoth tooth.

Q: And how big is it and how heavy is it?

A: So, weight-wise, the biggest bag of sugar, it’s probably much heavier than that. Size-wise it’s probably three and a half to five and a half inches wide. It’s got [ribs 00:37:16] coming along both sides and a bottom edge, it’s quite sharp, it’s worn in places. It’s dark brown and black. You can see the [vencular 00:37:32] lines of the teeth. It has bits of sand stuck in it, bits of stone. It’s beautiful.

Q: And was it covered in mud when you found it? Or was it--,

A: It had some gloopy mud on it where it was sitting right on the tide line and the water had been washing the mud away, which helped when I come across it. Yes.

Q: And when did you find it?

A: So, I found that this year, during--, a few months back now. And once again, contacted the museum, the Find Liaison Officer, I was given an interview and then brought it up. It was recorded and, yes, so and hopefully it will get the correct date on it. But these are very hard to date. Very hard. This one they say because of the colour, how dark it is, it’s a lot older than my previous woolly mammoth tooth that I found at the Thames.

Q: And what time of year was it again that you--,

A: So, again, summertime. Quite a, you know, a nice day and not too hot. A nice walk on the foreshore collecting flint has, you know, led me to finding a woolly mammoth tooth, which was brilliant.

Q: And how did you feel when you picked it up and realised?

A: I mean just complete and utter shock that I’d found another woolly mammoth tooth. The first one I picked up because it looked nice. I thought it was part of a stone. We find a lot of ships’ ballast that was used for ships’ ballast on the foreshore, which comes from all around the world. And I bring them home to put in the garden, around all the plants. And yes, so when I found that one I was happy. And when I found this one, numb. Absolute numb. Excited. Stumbling to get my phone out to take pictures. Stumbling to get away from the water in case it washed back out. Yeah.

Q: So, do you think it had eroded out or...?

A: Yes, I know where it had eroded out from. Yes. And apparently someone had found part of a tusk in previous years near to where that had washed out. So, yes, it made sense that it was there.

Q: Mmm. And you always take photographs of the item in situ?

A: Always take photographs of the item in situ, you know, to put on my social media accounts I have archaeologists that follow me. Being a full mudlark, you kind of get associated with, you know, all these types of people, which is good, so these people can see, you know, daily, what you're getting, what you're finding. If it’s important they will contact you straight away. Also you're doing the right thing. You know, you're documenting how it was found and where it was found, which is good. And it’s part of your licence to do that.

Q: And why did you choose this item today as your--,

A: Well, if you look, it’s--, I've got four items which is natural. Although nothing has been made from this woolly mammoth tooth, woolly mammoth teeth, they'd be making beads, all [hundreds and 00:41:29] thousands and thousands of years. It’s just a natural part of a woolly mammoth. It may possible have been a milk tooth that has naturally come out, like my other one. It’s organic, it looks nice, it feels nice. And it’s just a great thing to have and a great talking piece. And, you know, how many people find woolly mammoth teeth?

Q: And you've found two?

A: And I've got two [both laugh]. I've got two, yes.

Q: Yeah. It is absolutely stunning.

A: It really is.

Q: And it’s very, very big.

A: Very big. Very big. Very tactile.

Q: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much.

A: You're welcome.

Q: I bet you wish you'd learnt more history [laughs].

A: Yes, kind of. I believe if I went back to school now I would, you know, I would smash those history exams quite easily now and would be happy to take them, even teach them.

Q: Yeah.

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Yes. Thank you very much. That's been very interesting.

A: Thank you.

Q: Thank you.

[END OF RECORDING – 00;42:46]